Illegal Immigration--Posner's Response to Comments

Let me first try to clear up a few misunderstandings. I did not suggest that competition from illegal immigrants working in the United States was bad or inefficient. The more competition in labor markets, the better. Nor was I defending restrictions on immigration. I do not believe in unrestricted immigration, because the result would be such a flood of immigrants that the congestion and other external costs imposed, along with the inevitable political and social strains, that the costs would exceed the benefits. But I do think that we should encourage immigration, especially but not only of highly skilled workers. In our postings, Becker and I were assuming that there are laws restricting immigration, whether good or bad laws, and asking how they can best be enforced. I strongly disagree with the comment that complained about the "flotsom [sic] and jetsam" of the world's population being washed up on our shores. Most illegal immigrants are Mexican, and they are hard workers with strong family and other values compatible with U.S. culture. Most immigrants from other nations either have special skills that are in short supply in our nation or are refugees seeking asylum from regimes that have persecuted. I believe both classes of immigrants are positive additions to American society. That comment also accused Mexican illegal immigrants of being disproportionately involved in crime. An article last week in the New York Times reported the opposite--that they are less likely to commit crimes than members of other groups. That makes sense, since an illegal immigrant who commits a crime obviously greatly increases the likelihood of being deported. What is a true observation in the comment and what I should have mentioned in my original post is that the costs imposed by illegal immigration are distributed quite differently from the benefits, which may explain the strong anti-immigrant sentiment in some parts of the nation. The federal fisc is enriched by illegal immigration, because most of the immigrants pay social security taxes but are not eligible for social security benefits (or Medicare), and consumers as a whole benefit from the lower labor costs that result from a larger labor supply due in part to illegal immigration. But because the Supreme Court has held that it is unconstitutional to deny a free public school education to children of illegal immigrants, local school systems (and other local government service providers) incur additional costs as a result of illegal immigration that they do not recover in taxes. This is an imbalance that could be corrected by the federal government's providing financial aid to those schools, in recognition of the "profit" that the federal government earns from illegal immigrants because of their disentitlement to federal benefits. My guess, though, is that much or all of the added costs of local government that illegal immigrants impose are offset by the benefits that the immigrants confer on the local community in filling jobs in hotels, restaurants, and agriculture that American citizens do not want. One comment questions my suggestion that the Constitution might not require that children born in this country of illegal-immigrant parents automatically receive U.S. citizenship. It is true that section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment provides that “all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.” But the purpose of this provision, adopted in 1868, was merely to grant citizenship to the recently freed slaves, and the accepted exception for children of foreign diplomats and heads of state (such children, though born in the United States, do not receive U.S. citizenship), shows that the citizenship clause need not be read literally.

Comments

[Rob]

Do you mean illegal immigrants take jobs Americans have a subjective preference not to have or they exist on the low end of the wage scale such that they are preferable for those jobs which require little skill or skills that can be learned easily on the job?

[An Immigrant]

Re:
"Most immigrants from other nations either have special skills that are in short supply in our nation or are refugees seeking asylum from regimes that have persecuted"

You are soooo naive about this. Most "asylum seekers" simply fool US authorities. There are even guidebooks available in many countries about how to do this. There must be some legitimate ones somewhere but from what I see they are a small minority.

[Rachelle]

local school systems incur additional costs as a result of illegal immigration that they do not recover in taxes

This doesn't seem very true. Texas school systems are paid for primarily by property taxes, and the rest by sales taxes. Even those who rent indirectly pay property taxes.

Sales taxes are circumvented in part, by sending income back to family in another country. But that has always been one of the problems of a consumption tax. There are other taxes that won't be recaptured, income taxes over those withheld from paychecks, but it seems to me that would apply to only a small percentage of illegal immigrants. The taxes lost there are probably very similar to the average american shortchanging the IRS.

[N.E.Hatfield]

;)

[Z. M. Kedem]

You write: "and the accepted exception for children of foreign diplomats and heads of state (such children, though born in the United States, do not receive U.S. citizenship), shows that the citizenship clause need not be read literally."

As I understand it, those children do not receive U.S. citizenship, precisely because they are not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. as they enjoy diplomatic immunity, so the clause can be read literally.

[H. Tuttle]

Judge, I'm a big fan of yours, generally, but you need to get out more. When I worked down in the SDNY a few years ago the docket was stuffed to the rafters with illegals being sent away for drug crimes, insurance scams, you name it.

On Friday sentencings we'd hand out sentences clicking off decades like we were giving away chicklets, and inevitably the sad sack being sent away needed a court-appointed translator because they couldn't speak English. Some were here on green cards, legally, a vast majority were illegal. Either way they were criminals, who at substantial taxpayer expense were being sent away.

I'd suggest taking a look at the GAO report release last week that reveals immigration benefits fraud is rampant -
http://judiciary.house.gov/media/pdfs/gaoimmbenefits31006.pdf

The latest trick is for Chinese illegals to try and claim refugee status claiming if they are sent back to China they'll be sterilized. Amazing some courts appear to be buying into this. If they do we can expect the numbers of illegal Chinese here to mushroom overnight.

Lastly, it's constantly amazing that the "these people are hard working honest folk" crowds tend not to live in any of the areas where these illegals live. Come out to Queens, NY where I live sometime.

[Steve Sailer]

The New York Times op-ed claiming that Hispanic immigration reduced the crime rate was extremely weak and should not be relied upon uncritically.

A basic fact that it left out was that the Hispanic imprisonment rate per capita in the U.S. is 2.9 times the Anglo white rate. Similarly, it didn't mention that Hispanics are 19 times more likely to belong to a criminal gang than whites.

The op-ed claimed that later generations are more likely to become criminals than immigrants. If true, that just means that our high rate of illegal immigration at present is storing up an unholy mess for us down the road.

For a full critique, see
http://www.vdare.com/sailer/060312_sampson.htm

[Steve Sailer]

Judge Posner writes: "My guess, though, is that much or all of the added costs of local government that illegal immigrants impose are offset by the benefits that the immigrants confer on the local community in filling jobs in hotels, restaurants, and agriculture that American citizens do not want."

Isn't it time to stop using the cliche "jobs that American citizens do not want"? Back in Econ 101, when the professor was explaining supply and demand, he said there was no such thing as labor shortages, just labor shortages at the wages employers wanted to pay.

[EH]

"The more competition in labor markets, the better."

I guess if you're a federal judge -- or a tenured Economics professor, for that matter -- i.e. someone not subject to a lot of competition, this opinion is easier to hold.

But in the real world, it has some pretty ugly consequences for us humans (probably not for 'spam bots').

And for me personally, as a white engineer, when I walk into a job interview, and 2/3 of the people in the room are Indian or Asian, many of whom arrived as immigrants (one way or another), and I know they are seeing a parade of applicants just like themselves, being thankful for competition in the labor market would not exactly describe my thinking at that moment.

[Justin]

Your analysis of the situation is spot on. Those who claim that the "illegals" are a bunch of criminals who cause a net loss to our economy do not have the facts on their side and are simply part of a xenophobic (and in many instances bigoted) segment of the population. Looking back at the history of immigrants in this US it really doesnÔøΩt appear to be a new sentiment even though itÔøΩs an unfortunate one.

[EH]

"spot on"

A sizable majority of immigrants to America today are Hispanic; this is even more true of the illegals. And regarding them, it is also "spot on" that when compared to the existing (majority white) population, Hispanics are, on average, 1) significantly more likely to be criminal, and 2) significantly less likely to succeed academically, e.g. to attend and graduate from college. And this disparity persists for generations (which perhaps explains in part why the countries they are coming from are what they are). Given these facts, one might be forgiven for asking: How can it possibly make sense for a nation to import people with such a population profile?

[Shirley B.Abloy]

Idea is fresh but is trusted hardly

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